Freelancer - The Void

[align=center]READ ALL ---> THINK ---> FLAME AFTER
for sure not a mater of PM[/align]

I will keep this short, for all you lazy readers out there:

These days,  only chance of the week and uninspired is to become a tick on the hound’s back.
The furrier, the better.
We, as community are in a stage of civil war, and instead of reforming and think, we are emanating theories on the forums, and challenge each other intelligence and patience.
The notion of ROLE PLAY is kept stashed in carefully hidden pockets as an excuse to justify actions.
This is a SHOOTER SERVER when it suits us, and we RP as hell inhere according to 90% of the public statements and clans stories.
Is not RP that we need, and is not more events, it is less STUFF people.
Please try to explain me why we have ADMINS and VOID and Guardians and whatever authorities we can came up with, members of clans, not to mention clan leaders.

YOU CAN NOT BE A LAW ENFORCER WHILE YOU HAVE AN ALLEGIANCE TO A CERTAIN GROUP.

This is not a matter of judging the decisions they make and their morale integrity.
Is from the start a wrong thing, regardless of the skills, judgment or morals of the person.
Yes, I think there are A and V that abuse their power, or don’t know how to use it.
Yes, I think there are of them who cheats. Don’t have the proof, and will never have. Those ones are the one who know to use their powers. Who will have to point at them? Their buddies?
Yes, I will hurt with this the ones that are really well intentioned, but you are guilty also of not making the choice. The game and the thrill of the play can be experienced by being a FREELANCER too.
We can have the best mod around, and we will not prevail, until we shower off all the hypocrisy and we get organized.
VOID is in the Middle Ages now, when common sense is common sense when the lord acts, and is treason when the peasant rises.
Call me a traitor then.
I will not leave the server unless the RL goes on wild (as it did so many times), but I can’t help in keep watching in utterly disgust the way that the actions of few are the rules for the many.
The rules of this server serve as guide lines for some, and training beacons for others.
I’m not turning my back and leave because of something I don’t like.
I stay and express my freedom of speech and fight for my environment.
This is not about me or you.
This is about VOID and us.
I still have faith that the ones that are worthy of trust and have the conscience, will take action and move on to the right path.

Pardon me if i am wrong,basically you are saying that before somebody becomes a Void Guardian or Admins he or she should leave his clan/alliance/group so that he can judge without any partiality?

Good point,but may not really ever happen here.

One thing i really hate...is the lack of transparency,just take a look at Watchwolf's post...."some staff"..."powers that be"....a lot of things are never explained and are just kept hidden...

But i digress,coming to the point,i think there should be a "Jury",a jury of ordinary Vodians who can called upon to judge and deliver punishments regarding players abuses,offences etc.

Atm,the Admins and Void Guardians are everything-
The Legislature(make rules),The Executive(implement and enforce them) and Judiciary(Judge on the basis of the laws they create).

In simple words they are the Law.

Imo,the Judiciary aspect,often very controversial,should have some components drawn from the community.(like i have a suggested a jury).This will make sure "abuses of power from A Team" are checked and they are not prejudiced against anybody.

-Geromix

LOL DV full of S**T you think they wouldnt have chosen these guardains without good deliberation your gobbing offf saying the these staff should give up there clans dude go BORE off.

a jury wouldnt work as some peeps are evil and some are good bias woukd come into it.

as simple as this:
when u look at the diplomacy of clans, ull notice there are actually 2 groups
'evil' and 'good' side ( well except eclipse )
and when u look at who bans who, more often does an guardian 'aligned' ( as in clan or was in clan) of one group bans a player of the other group
not because that player didnt do anything wrong but because the guardian from that 'group' often ignores it couse the player in question is his friend

now the only real problem is that there are more guardians from one group than from the other
as for the jury idea the problem whould be the same, 2 groups , 2 sides

as for cheating, if the flac doesnt kick u , then its very hard for anyone to prove, just acusations
however if ur a guardian u basically 'cant' get accused
anyway imo voids- should be in clans, admins - shouldont be in clans

another word about the rp, R tagged players allso go on the grup altho by they rp they shouldont (there are exeptions but mostly they do)

Actually some Admins and Voids are members of their clans for long years and I think they would not leave these clans. I'd like to see how many of them would choose to stay in their home clans instead of being server staff.

Anyhow, I get your point but in my opinion their memberships in clans or one of the sides as you said..that is not the matter. All depends on people themselves. If the Admin or Void is fair, loyal and he doesn't want to abuse his powers...then it doesn't matter if he is member of one RP side or another.

And if he's not fair, loyal or honest ? Then we got the problem.

Dalek,why are you flaming him? Volker is right. It is indeed unethical.. Sooner or later personal feelings will come into play and cloud one's judgement.

But since void population is not so big,and the community is tightly knighted ( meaning almost everyone knows the next guy),there arent many choices to make when it comes to selecting admins or guardians.

But Volker, im affraid you're message wont come through,and people will just see the flames they want,and respond in kind.
TBH, i would have chosen people from AoF, like Geromix,Hash or Comfort as Guardians. They always seem  relaxed,reasonable and with clear thinking. Besides, because of AoF's nature they have no great animosity towards other clans (at least not one that i know of).

So,to sum it up i sort of displeased as well, but up to now i havent suffered from any errors of judgement from the powers of the law,so i guess i cant complain either.

Time will always be the best judge in sittuations as this.

For one thing here we are not talking about "errors in judgement", what you are talking about is deliberate biase. This has been discussed many times before, but lets look at the alternative you make the Admins and Guards give up there clan characters, loose their identity and just become a police officer, then how long do you think said guard will be interested enough and willing to put up with all the s*** that we get. Not damm long.

Now can you give me a specific Admin or Void that has been letting off clan members, or making biased descisions because of this? If so please do, BUT DO IT BY PM. If you really have a greivance then send a PM to Vector detailing who the guard(s) is and exactly what the biased decision was, and he will deal with it.

So your post says if I can sum this up...

Keep it in PM... So why didn't you?

Admins are bias... So why don't you send a PM?

Seriously, Instead of making a post for people to flame in, is just increasing the aggro. If you have a problem send it to vector, and i'm sure he will be more than happy to look into the complaint for substantial evidence.

Now I would like to know why you think someone from the "Bad" side alignment is not allowed to ban someone on the "Good" side alliance. for me, that just sounds like you feel you are being targeted. But let me remind you of something. Maybe they are doing something wrong and then they get banned for that? If you are fighting for the evil side then of course then you may see something easier going on in the battle field as you are continuously watching the good side. But then again you see the evil as well as you have the chat logs to look at etc. And you should be able to see if they say or do something wrong.

So just because if they are fighting for one side, you expect them to automatically be bias? Even if it was that bad wouldn't they just do it even if they left there clan? I mean come on. There are voids from both the good and the bad side. So i'm pretty sure its all fair and the admin on at the time will do the banning, I wouldn't think twice about banning someone on my side of the fence if they were doing something wrong.

If you really have that much of a problem, send a PM to Vector and get him to sort out any problems that you think might have occurd.

Greaver.

=D> This is an old topic.  As per usual the same old comments come to light.  Im not going to lay into people as that will only stoke the fire as to my alleged bias.  You're new to this server DV so I understand your concern - it was a subject that was raised before and a decision was made regarding this.  In terms of bias our decisions were (and are) closely monitored, and have been (though rarely) reversed or changed for a variety of reasons. Please get it into your heads here - This Is Not A Democracy.  In order for the game and the site to work we need to have a hierarchy. I hear a cry for "transparency" .... What do you care in Watchwolf's topic regarding the REAVERS slogan which VOID staff members object?  You want us to embarass them by making their names public?  Do you want me to list all the names of the suspected and definate cheats as part of our ongoing policing of the VOID? That just gives them the heads up and then the whole "No I didnt" arguments start!  We neither have the time nor the patience to get into that sort of rubbish.

Some players here have a history of disagreement with me and I have no problem with that - funny thing is if I was that biased would they still be playing here?  Probably not. Frankly there are a few that I couldnt give a ratsass as to whether they are here or not...Hypocracy??? Blow me down and call me Nancy! A certain clan (sorry for not being transparent - dont want to EMBARASS anyone!) vowed never to return - yet they ALL bar a very few, came back with their tails between their legs cos they found it VERY difficult to get accepted in other places. ( I do read the offsite forums and have people sending me stuff from there... I saw what you said about me, so think yourself lucky you are still allowed to play here.)

You think there are to many Server Police or did I misunderstand that?  I have been to other servers where the place is riddled with cheaters and those who do not play to the rules and the staff simply cant be bothered to fix it - its a server for them and their pals - if you dont fit in with the clique then you might as well not bother.  THAT does not happen here. You want to try "self regulation"?  Good Luck! I guarantee you that within a matter of two months this place would vanish - no one would want to come here for the very same reason as stated above. Some of you have been ADMINS and Guardians on other servers  - I dont know to what level but I am aware that some have experience of these things - therefore they, if anyone, should understand that maintaining a server such as VOID is not an easy task.  We do it for the love of the game.  We do it for free and we give our free time to do so - NONE of you have to pay for the privilege of coming here to play whilst others are happy to put their hands in their pockets and keep this place alive - not just for their own benefit but for the fun of others - YOU WOULD ALL DO WELL TO REMEMBER THAT.

So - how do we "solve" your problem.  Ok. Let me tell you a little story and again I will "change the names to protect the innocent.."  I was a VOID guardian.  I was a member (founder) of the Alliance of Freelancers BEFORE I became a VOID. Despite the fact that AoF at the time permitted multi clanning there were those that abused this because their own clans clearly stated that they could not MULTICLAN.  When cornered on this subject an argument ensued. I was requested to step down from the leadership of AoF because I was a founder member of the REAVERS and also a VOID guardian - the cry of "Bias" went up. This was purely because certain members of certain clans were not behaving and had been repremanded by me and some of them banned (for the seven days)  - anyone would have thought I'd just shot their pet dog given the way they retaliated to the ban. In consultation with STRAIL (the man with the final say) I decided for the GOOD OF THE VOID - that I would hand over the AoF leadership to another person that could focus on developing the AoF as they would have the time to do so - with attempting to establish the REAVERS ( a whole LOAD of history there that you dont need to dig over right now...!)  AND being a VOID guardian, my time was split.  In the end the REAVERS went under "new management".  I remain a Clan Member and am only there to consult with the leadership should they require it.  There is one very strict rule for VOIDS and ADMINS:  (Re Read the Mission Statement for the Guardians.) Be Even Handed. Its NOT easy. Would it be easy if none of the Staff were clan members?  Maybe - but then you are asking people who give of their time here to give up the VERY thing that they come here to do! Does that seem fair to you?  I will give up my clan membership of the REAVERS when YOU ALL start paying a monthly fee to come and play here - does that sound fair?

There are a number of Server Guards for a reason. One was Time Zones. One was to address the very problem that you have raised.  We also wanted to see if we could safely get a cross section of the VOID on the team - that way certain clans could not cry "Bias!"  Believe me ( and the VOID guardians know it) they are watched.  When they step out of line they are told - thats why we have a section that the rest of the PUBLIC cant see.  On the face of it we will at all times and to the best of our ability BACK our staff members.  We will not air our dirty laundry in public. Problems get sorted out within the team and are NONE of your concern unless it directly involves you for any particular reason.  We are still working on it - I can guarantee you this - if we decrease the number of guardians people will cry for more police.  If we increase the number, people will cry "Police State!" and "Bias!" ..... Catch 22?  You betcha.

Your point is a good one - sadly its a mute point.  I am not about to ask players to give up clans that they enjoy being part of and I will not listen to cr@p about the Abuse of Power here in a public domain.  IF you have a particular problem with a particular VOID guardian - address it with them. If you dont like the response then contact an ADMIN.  Believe me IF we find that VOIDS are abusing their privileges they will be removed. Some are suited to the role - others are not.  This is a fluid situation - being a VOID is not a "Job For Life".  

We - thats the staff - will decide and ultimately the person running the server will decide what happens here. Your points are noted - but they are old points - we already have them all written down and they do come up more often that you would know.  I will finish with these few points - Write them down on a "post-It" and place it on your monitor....

1. The VOID is not a democracy.  Read the rules and do what the Server Staff ask of you.

2. IF you have a problem with any particular player address the issue with them. Then bring it to a VOID, still not happy? Bring it to an ADMIN? Still not happy? Address the problem to the Head Administrator. Abide by the decision.

3. Bans are not for open public debate. Contact the banning VOID or ADMIN. Unhappy (see point 2)

4. If you dont like it here - go play somewhere else - we are not all things to all people.

5. This is a SHOOTER server with a bit of RP thrown in for good measure and most of the time it works.
(see point 4)

6. Take your bans like a grown up and not a whinging child. Whinging children - (see point 4.)

7. Rarely are bans permanent - at best they are for 24hrs at worst they are for 7 days. Permanent bans are allocated for cheating and persistent bad behaviour.  (see point 6 and point 4)

DONT LIKE IT? See Point 4.
Now go play the game ...  :-w

I don't get this what is the harm in having a jury?

Yes,everywhere we will have 'divisions' and 'splits of votes' but imo it is better than the current system.

Lets say we have Clan A,
Clan A is "apparently involved" in some kind of "dirty stuff/business"(could be anything-cheating,harassing etc).
But this is only an 'allegation'.
In current system,the Admins will judge,BUT what IF a particular Admin/Void Guard is member of Clan A/or is friend of Clan A?
Bias?
Prejudice?
Partial?
Lenient?

Any of the above can easily happen.
**Its natural,humans being do make errors in judgment,and we may not admit it,but we personal relationships DO matter**(This is in specific response to Verminard)

Now,i have high respect for Admins here and the Void,all of them are quite good,but they are humans.
(Whatever judgment they pass might always evoke 'doubts' from certain sections of community,moreover as i have mentioned a lot of this happens behind the scenes,details aren't revealed about the 'trial' if any,a complete lack of transparency.)

In the system i propose,things will be better if not great.

1.Not all offenses would require a jury.Day to day dealings can be easily handled by the competent A and V Team.

2.However certain cases should be set aside like say "Banning an entire clan"(extremely serious and DTA comes to my mind,sorry but it is inevitable).
In such cases,a Jury MUST be drawn/created to judge and pass their verdict on the entire case.
A quota system can be drawn up for this-
-Some seats on the jury should be reserved for choices of Admins(maybe 33%)
-Some seats should be reserved for the defendant(33%)
-Some for the prosecution(the one who makes the allegation in first place/produces evidence)(33%)

^^The percentage and the quota can be 'refined',the above is just an example.

Some minimum qualifications should be there to be part of jury.(like say should have been a Voidian for a year)

A lot will really depend on 'who convinces whom' with 'clan concerned/accused' given a chance to prove its innocence.

Its fair.
The chances of 'splits' are more reduced in this.
The whole 'trial' can even happen in a 'forum' thereby out in the 'open'.
(people can read the topics/replies but can't make their own posts except for the members of the jury and those concerned,this is possible)

The whole 'trial' can happen,in a proper way,with each side getting a specific number of posts,even witnesses and posts for 'evidence'.

This can easily be done.One just has to make a forum with the appropriate permissions.

-Admins won't have to leave their clans.
-It will be a judgment from the community(thereby reducing the 'doubts'/'grievances' regarding the judgment).Essentially it will be 'complete' and 'balanced'.
-It will be fair,with a trial actually taking place.
-It will be open,other people can read what is going on,none of the 'behind the scenes-PM business' which raise suspicions.
-Admins won't be judged,less pressure on them.
Won't have to face 'fire' from the community and recurrent doubts on their judgment.
-Larger number involved,reduces chances of 'grave individual errors'.


Ofc,this just a proposal,but i believe it has its merits,the actual system can be changed to suit other requirements.

Once again things depend on Admins,all power is with them

-Geromix

[quote="Zebulon";p="214107"]Please get it into your heads here - This Is Not A Democracy.  In order for the game and the site to work we need to have a hierarchy. I hear a cry for "transparency" .... What do you care in Watchwolf's topic regarding the REAVERS slogan which VOID staff members object?  You want us to embarass them by making their names public?  [/quote]

We all know this is NOT a democracy.This has been stated many times.

I only propose to 'work around' the 'status quo' and not change it.(The status quo being No Democracy,and this cannot be changed we all understand,so we work around it)

-Regarding Reavers slogan,it was not me who raised the issue first and asked for a public vote.
I gave my opinion and so did others.
WW himself has said there is Nothing to Fear(the one who has raised objections should present his own arguments) and i stand by this.
Take a look at DV here,he is NOT a Void Guard,just an ordinary Voidian,but he had the guts to raise this issue up in the public.
And why can't the "powers that be" reveal themselves and present their own arguments?

You misunderstood me completely,the objective is NOT to malign them,shame them or embarrass them,BUT to reach a consensus!!
(How can we reach a consensus if both sides are not represented?All replies in WW's topic are one sided)
I will never ridicule a person because i disagree with him.(May go after the arguments but never the person)
So what is the harm?

You talk of concern,i have concern,this the slogan of a clan,its identity and soul is based on it,if its removed i wonder what will be the effect on the clan.
Tomorrow this may happen to some other clan and then to some other,without any explanation how can one tolerate this?

And regarding the old AoF-Reavers-Zebulon thing,i was surprised that you bowed down "under pressure from certain people".(Remember it was only a few but you still went ahead with your decision).
I was perplexed then and i still am,it was not against the rules but still...
It is buried.
Even its ghosts are buried.
 

-Geromix

[quote="Blazefury";p="214099"]Dalek,why are you flaming him? Volker is right. It is indeed unethical.. Sooner or later personal feelings will come into play and cloud one's judgement.[/quote]

flaming nope i stating the obvious he is directly accusing the admins of choosing biased voids without a shred of proff and prob cos the fact he has either been wronged with was prob a right decision. if DV thinks that the staff are corrupt then i suggest to DO 1, and stop taking this cartoon spaceship so GODDAM serious.

as for you blaze i take your point on board but it went straight out the other ear as what i said was not wrong was it.

This is just stupid........Very....VERY stupid....

You can't avoid that players that are server staff are also clan members / leaders.
But if someone wants to be a guard you say he must leave it's clan? No, that won't happen, you'll have no-one that'll join you.

I know it's true that if it occurs that a clan member gets in trouble. It's at that point that the VOID / GUARD / ADMIN must admit that he is server staff and must judge as one, not as a friend. In real life a Policeman shouldn't let someone who broke the law go unpunished. It's life!

That's why those staffmembers are ought to be chosen when we are known of who they are and how the will act.

No further comment.

Regards,
Milithor.

When i am in my void char you will notice that i am never grouped unless there are other staff on, or im having a word with (player X) about something trying to deal with a situation

When a void is online in there Guardian char they are neither Good nor evil nor any RP

yes me, kos, para, liman and greaver are new to this task, yes we are human and we can make mistakes but we are adapting with the help of the A team

you think some of the staff are bias?

take me for example, i may hang around with the evil part of the community, i may be part of a clan but on numerous occasions iv had to calm (evil playerX) down or give them a 15 min break. Thus iv done the same for the good sides in situations. If a syndicate stepped out of line i would deal with it as i would with any other player

so breaking all this down :

The role i act on my [VOID] char i have no 'freinds' and i give nobody special treatment
The role i act on my clan char is i have my 'freinds' and i act on there as any other gamer would

if you think that any desician that me or anyone else have made was bias i would like to hear about it
and something can be done

Dyn