ROGUE and [R] tags

[Strail]

I dont know why removing a RP tag of [R] suddenly means that the game is not a shooter anymore.

So we take a "ROLE PLAY" tag out of the game and then all of a sudden, the server does not become a shooter game anymore? Can you see the irony in this. On one hand people dont want RP tags because its a shooter game and not a RP server. then when one is removed, theres a clamour to state that it is now not a shooter game.

The game is what you make it, the server is what you make it and sometimes things which are abused have to be removed for the greater good of the server and the players.

As regards the server rules, these are here only because people cant get on and play together, so they need to be told the limitations of what they can do. if you think about it logically, we shouldnt have to have any rules because if we all played to have fun, there wouldnt be a need to work out how many times you can get away killing a player multiple times before stopping because you would get banned, or killing low level players because there easy prey or abusing another player in order to get him to leave the server. I dont live in an ideal world, but i am constantly surprised about players who quote rules when they act selfishly.

Dont get me wrong, im not having a go at you for quoting the rules in this thread, Im just pointing out that having a load of server staff to keep policing players every minute of the day is not condusive to everyone having a good time. IMO server staff should be there to uphold the rules, not be questioning players every few minutes or having players complaining at them because they have been killed.

[geromix]

Hello Strail

I would agree with Zeus and cmdrsaman.
It should have been regulated by Admins by issuing special ''licenses or tags'' to a limited number of people who have excelled in RP of the ''rogue''.

Experience in other servers-
I have seen in other servers that role of a ''terrorist'' or ''rogue''or even that of the ''Nomad'' is well regulated and only select players are given the tag.(You first have to go through a trial period and then your performance is reviewed and seen whether you are worthy of the tag.) It is a success there.

Problem with [R] has been misunderstood-
The problem with [R] in Void was not the roleplay but the lack of restrictions and regulation of it.
In Void every Tom,Dick and Harry wanted to be a Rogue and kill mindlessly,the solution was to simply restrict it and regulate it.
In real world,only a small minority are ''terrorists'' and accordingly Void should should have mirrored it.
The RP scene of Void would be incomplete without the role of the terrorist or rogue.
There has to be some rogues or terrorists.

Decision-Taking-
Also,opinions of the community were not taken before this decision came out,instead the opinion is being taken after the decision has been made.
What sense does it make to ask for views after the decision was taken?
Strail,I like the fact that you want to change Void but as you have mentioned elsewhere you have to take the community on board before a decision is taken. Now,you are facing a backlash form many people. At least, a poll should have been taken before.
Ofc,having said all this,Void is no democracy and you are well within in your right to "impose decisions".(But it has negative consequences)

Lack of differentiated RP-
Xenon is also right when he talks of the evil RP. Ideally, there should be only 2 clans as evil,Void has lost all diversity in RP and there is too much of evil RP.
This maybe due to low numbers but some clans should make the switch to a more meaningful RP.
At least one evil clan out of the current crop of evil clans has to become a pirate clan for the sake of piracy and for sake of Void.
The number of evil clans has to be restricted as well.
Similarly,the "good" clans have to differentiate in their RP. Some have to be  ''navy'' and some ''Order''. There is a difference between the two and that is not the case now.
This is the reason why I say it should be made mandatory for every clan to have their own RP IDs or Licenses in-game .(This needs to come along with Clan Reps coming in the mod)

What will happen?
Current rogue players will most likely become freelancers. Not any "normal freelancer" though,they will most likely continue killing everybody. Things could become worse as now nobody will have a warning if this guy is a rogue or not,many new players will be in confusion.
The point is- How can anyone differentiate in-game if this player is rogue or not?(That is integral to Role play.)

All in all,I would say the intention is wonderful and finally Void is moving in some direction and is not caught  in an endless drift. =D>
But the execution is poor because a consensus was not evolved.

In simple words this decision is akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water.(Good parts of rogue RP are being thrown out as well)

I urge you Strail,to reconsider this decision and take into account the views of those don't agree with this.
Please create a consensus on this important issue first.

From a retired Voidian who doesn't care about post counts now but is still attached to Void-Geromix

[Strail]

Hi Geromix,

You have many valid points, however, one of the key issues is that currently we do not have the ability to uphold the correct Role Play of [R] tagged characters. I believe that our concept of [R] tagged characters was that they were shoot on sight for all other players, this just doesnt happen. The Role Play of [R] has disapeared, there really isnt any RP & indeed, [R] tags are not shoot on sight for any players. They just fly in space like any other RP tag.

The downside of this is that anyone with an [R] believes they can kill anyone and anything "as its their role play". So sadly this tag is irrelevent for the purposes of Role Play as the only time they RP is when their killing for no reason and there is no RP interaction with the other players (in the main). It is all one sided.

Therefore the [R] tag doesnt actually enhance any RP aspects of the game for players other than those who have them on their characters. Once you add the abuse of the tag by some selfish players, it doesnt warrant remaining.

If at some stage we controlled the tag, there was a qualification period and the other things you mentioned. I would have no objection to returning the [R] tag. As it stands at the moment though, it just isnt managed,controlled or run correctly to keep it in the game.

I have no objection to having a discussion with those players who want to develop a viable [R] tag role play. But the old style [R]that we run at the moment has to be removed first.

[BLAHA]

noooo my lovely Kanto[R] AND it had his history but on the other hand its true havent seen any R having any idea wht they do with this char

Edit: well i used it as i left a "navy" clan and took my first steps to the evil side...for this time it was great^^

[geromix]

Sorry for the double post but it seems Strail posted as I was writing my post.(No surprises because my post was long)

@Strail-
Many people consider ''Rogue'' as being a "vehicle" through which they can shoot at everything.
Even though this is primarily a shooter server people use the Rogue tag to shoot indiscriminately because it is the norm and this gives some knowledge to the defender that the attacker will kill him without any reason.
Also [R] tag becomes the "fig leaf covering  their actions".

Remember when Sythe raised the issue of a Freelancer having the right to shoot at everything and that he did not need a rogue tag for it.
Many people said that he should use a [R] tag because that is the proper thing to do.

You need something to differentiate a Rogue from a Freelancer.
A Freelancer cannot be a rogue or terrorist.
He will lose all potential employers if he starts killing indiscriminately.

A shooter server needs some semblance of RP.

There is irony in this,no doubt about that. But you need a 'mark' or a 'tag' to differentiate.

As it is there not too many rogues now,I don't think there will be any difficulty in managing or administrating them after restricting their numbers even further considering the fact that there is a big enough A Team and Void Guard.

EDIT-
OK,I read your new post. I liked it.
Fine then you should draw up a list of Rogues and ask their views.
Then have a trial period and qualification process.
And give some licenses to a few players.
I am sure this is workable solution to everybody. This is fair. You should convey this decision to the existing Rogues.

-Geromix

[Burn]

to a limited number of people who have excelled in RP of the ''rogue''.

Could you or anybody here name some Rogues who "have excelled in RP of the rogue"?
Peobably not or maybe one or two as most of the R tagged players just massivly abused it to go on solo rampages. (shoot first ask later ftw go go go  =D> )

What sense does it make to ask for views after the decision was taken? thinking
Strail,I like the fact that you want to change Void but as you have mentioned elsewhere you have to take the community on board before a decision is taken. Now,you are facing a backlash form many people. At least, a poll should have been taken before.
Ofc,having said all this,Void is no democracy and you are well within in your right to "impose decisions".(But it has negative consequences)

Current rogue players will most likely become freelancers. Not any "normal freelancer" though,they will most likely continue killing everybody.

Actually it will have a positive outcome as former rogues will probably consider joining or creating an evil/nomad/pirate clan.
There are some positive reactions to this aswell so "Strail facing a backlash form many people"? not from me or many more.
If you create a poll it can be easily abused (just like R tag was abused by some individuals) by massivly creating new accounts and voting for keeping the R tag.

there should be only 2 clans as evil,Void has lost all diversity in RP and there is too much of evil RP.

Let's not forget that the Void is not a mandatory RP server so im definately against creating only 2 evil clans.
Actually i'm for creating as many clans as possible (evil or friendly RP alike)
The more the better for the server!

btw,rogues were not alloed to join clans or groups thereby they have nothing in common with RP or a contrubution for RP to this server (in my honest oppinion)

When was the last time we saw a navy/military chasing a lone rogue using gerilla hit and run tactics (abuse your power ftw)

[Burn]

[quote="BLAHA";p="225938"]noooo my lovely Kanto[R] AND it had his history but on the other hand its true havent seen any R having any idea wht they do with this char

Edit: well i used as i left a "navy" clan and took my first steps to the evil side...for this time it was great^^[/quote]

Splendid!Now you can return to the navy clan and contribute to the servers in-game experience.
Or joining an evil clan (nothing wrong with that)

Good luck & have fun.

[cmdrsaman]

@ Xenon: well, there could be a number of good reasons why a clan would want to form when there's already another with that RP. A theoretical example: Clan A plays the Corsairs. They're doing it wrong, buddying up with the Outcasts, sitting in plain sight in Europa, and so on: maybe they even have some problems with running their own clan. A group of players want to play the Corsairs too, but not with Clan A: so they form Clan B. Would it really be worth restricting their freedom of choice if there are at least five people who would like to play that role differently? :) (Not even Disco does that, mind you.)

Besides, as I've had to stress a fair amount of times: clans roleplay a group of their faction, not the faction itself. There is no "The Order" clan, no "Europa Navy" clan, and so on - players don't get to decide what the npcs and their factions do, that's up to the dev team. Make no mistake, we are open for suggestions, but saying stuff like "we are XY, so they are going to do Z" doesn't go over well :P


As for the removal of the rogue tag: to set the record straight, I'm not against it, afaik it has been agreed upon earlier, but I'm not completely happy about how it has been handled so far. I think we should go farther than this, and change more of the rules, otherwise the same thing will happen to a different tag/role over time. (And if that tag would be the [X], or even freelancers, removal wouldn't really be an option, now would it? :P)

Some people have suggested that some clan RPs be changed. Yeah, that would go over well with people :) How exactly would it be decided that which clan(s) would have to change their role? If such a thing were to be done, then I'd say let us start with a clean slate, delete all the official clans and have them re-form according to the new rules. That would also solve the problem of inactive clans.


@ Burn: Markus. There were also some peeps who played it well, but never really used the forums.
(Also, if you say that, then keep in mind that any poll could easily be abused.)
Oh, and BLAHA is a member of the BL :P

[Gr8-Lizard]

[quote="Darth_Vader";p="225906"][quote="=ESF=XENON";p="225890"]A BRILLIANT DECISION !! although there is still some invented RP Called " EVIL " which in my view is totally and completely resemble the [R] RP but hey , that's a progress , i wonder how would some newbies play here on void when they get killed 5 to 10 times per minute !!! by more skilled Rogue and evil players ... well i don't think the newbies will stay ofc. but they will leave , so this decision is the best i've heard from a while

regards,
XENON[/quote]

so we should all be the good navy and take care of freelancers killing... hmmm... what would everyone be killing then? :-/ can anyone answer that?
well, then we would become a pure pvp server and we could wipe all tags out, since there would be no RP whatsoever.

[quote="Gr8-Lizard";p="225899"]If the [R] atacks without warning is yr concerne, make a rule: Anyone could atack any rogue without reason(warning), could be overkilled, outnumbered, etc & [R]s could atack only as a respond if they R atacked
I wil really miss my Wa[R]Dog... [/quote]

hmmmm so you're saying a rogue would have to come to another player, park next to him and beg him to shoot, so he could attack back?  :-/[/quote]
@
No need 2 beg them 4 atacking m8! Players could be obliged by rules 2 try KOS any Rogue , no mater if they want it or not.  :P

[=ESF=XENON]

@ Cmdrsman

[quote="=ESF=XENON";p="225920"]i think it will be great if the official clans are enforced to follow a RP from the original RPs of the game , maybe allow modifying the RP and adding spices to it but in the same time , can't resemble other RP otherwise what's the point[/quote]

Also i would like to say that if this is applied and all official clans are forced to have a RP from the game with these conditions i mentioned in my older reply here "(Quoted again above)" then no mistakes will be done , and there should be a Surveillance from admins and void guards about if some clan uses a RP and apply it wrong - Things should be corrected by admin via an advice to the clan leader , then if the clan didn't obey the rule then they can simply be punished by removing them from the official clans list , and if didn't stop disobeying the RP after that , then it should receive a BAN and that's not Over Reacting , cause if you calculated the damage that these Clans doing on this server by choosing a RP and applying Opposite , then you will completely observe that the lack of clan's RP organizing is the main reason of what this server is passing by "(low activity)" + Excessive Rogue & Evil kills to newbies "( by few players who lack the fair game spirit )" + some more reasons , but it's not the right place or thread to open wide discussion about it here.

@ Strail

I think that the Rogue RP didn't cause a problem here , but the ABUSE of it , i think that maybe if by a way or another , the Rogue RP is granted by the admins for the most suitable players with complete and close watching on their actions and usage of RP is a very nice idea.
i agree with Geromix and for the first time in my life , i agree with Zeus about that.

Thank you
regards,
XENON

[zyraxes]

When a player is killed with no reason that player will search for revenge.He will search friends for help,he will fight,he will have a purpose in game.That is called action on server.Encouraging new players? new players are geting bored because they have no action,not because they are engaged.Nobody left server because of R roleplay."Life" on server must be like in real life.Police,army,criminals etc.Making your "life" secured on server,where no one can attack you with no reason,it will be boring.Players needs action and purposes in game.
I disagree with this one.Make the server like in real life,full of unexpected actions,continuous role play for taged players(lol,isn't this the reason for tags???).Who does not want to be part of any role will not use any tag.
Most of R's are funny and they are making action.Most of them are veterans and they switch to R tag when life on server becomes boring.

Cheers

[Battor]

true

+1

[LTHamlet]

[font=Century Gothic]The R's have been destroyed through revenge! Now the X,s must replenish and Recruit For The Navy and there Allies grow restless[/font]  :-SS

[geromix]

@Burn-

1.Most rogues are already part of some clan or the other. In most cases they are part of some evil clan. So the question of them joining somewhere else just doesn't arise.
Ask the rogues about this,whether they are part of an existing clan or not.

2. Many have played the RP really well.
Jase-Katar's Markus is the one of the most brilliantly played rogue characters,not just in Void but imo  in the entire FL community. It matches the toughest standards of RP set in RP oriented servers like Disco etc.(This guy has left Void and plays STO now,would he ever return after this rule change?)
Just as cmdrsaman has pointed a small minority among the rogues do exist who play it well.
Yeah most people abuse it.
So that is the point of regulation- Get rid of these selfish players and ensure that ones who play well continue to play it.


3. Strail talked of selfish attitude among players.
On other servers,Admins have realized that you can never eliminate selfish attitude.
There will always be some selfish immature jerk wanting to shoot at everything without any sense. The best way to deal with it is by locking this attitude in a particular RP that is firmly under the controls of Admins.
By eliminating a RP you can never eliminate selfish attitude of players.
Players will find some other way to express this selfishness.
That is the whole point of regulation.

4. The only thing that will improve this server is RP.
RP dynamics has to improve and with respect to that I mentioned what an ideal RP environment of the Void should be.
2 evil clans is just what an ideal scenario should be keeping in mind the current player count. That is all.
I would not support any restrictions or forcing other clans to switchover to some other RP.(Has to be voluntary)
Nor am i saying clans should start from a clean slate. All clans will be in uproar over that.

Void imo could easily come into Top 3 servers again if RP here improves.
I am not talking of Enforced RP for everybody but at least enforce RP for clans.
There are many people from other servers who would love to play in an ''relaxed RP'' environment mixed with good quality PvP.
Believe me there is "strong demand" for such a server and Void could meet this demand if server rules are changed to enforce RP among clans and differentiate 'PvP for Sport' from 'PvP for RP'.
I too will gladly return to the server when that happens.

Anyway I would not be continuing this ahead,this thread has run its course.
By the looks of it Strail won't reconsider this decision.
If he ever asks for suggestions for regulating Rogue RP then i will be ready with my "suitcase filled with suggestions" as always. (Btw,if and when player count improves people will demand the Rogue RP back and this decision will have to be revisited inevitably.)

-Geromix

[Strail]

@ Geromix,

I have no objection to having a discussion with those players who want to develop a viable [R] tag role play. But the old style [R]that we run at the moment has to be removed first.

This is the last line of my last post, I dont think you read that.